Actually, Arsenal’s youth academy is internationally recognized as one of the best in the world. The European Club Association holds it as a model along with Ajax and Barcelona.
1 Like
The last successful crop from the academy, were Cesc and Cole.
If Jack wasn’t injured that much, he has that talent.
Other than that, I think our youth facility benefits our ranking very much.
That’s kind of besides the point, though, when we’re talking about players that have been developed for/or within the first-team–and not just academy players. Anyways, other studies (also, just giving a quick look at the one you’ve posted, it seems a case study rather than a global study of european academies, so the ranking will likely be rather arbitrary) will give us far less flattering results: http://www.espnfc.co.uk/ajax-amsterdam/story/2313733/ajax-train-most-active-players-in-european-top-divisions-study-says
One of the big reasons I’ve jumped off the Wenger wagon over the past couple years is that, sadly (while a bit hyperbolic as always), what Morris says has a good bit of truth in it. The last time Wenger successfully developed a young player into a top player was van Persie, and he was in his late 20s by then. Other players he’s developed have evinced a systematic lack of tactical intelligence and on-the-field intelligence (Ramsey, Wilshere, Ox, Theo, Gibbs, Djourou*…and even Fábregas could potentially be included in this list, given how he was found out tactically in Spain). When of the 5 players who have spent significant time in their development stages directly under Wenger’s tutelage (and who were to make up a significant core of our ‘project’), you have really only one who could potentially not still be a failure (Wilshere), it is hard not to draw conclusions on the current ability of the manager here. It is hard not to call it what it seems to be: a failure of development.
Later, it’s impossible to deny that our most tactically intelligent, and best players, have come from outside and without any development on Wenger’s part: Mertesacker, Arteta, Cazorla, Özil, Alexis, Monreal. Just comparing them with the players who have come from “inside” you get a pretty stark contrast, and clear picture.
*Chambers’ development is not exactly looking promising either.
5 Likes
Bellerin?
Coq?
Iwobi also has a lot of promise
1 Like
Too early to call Bellerín a top player, and if I’m being honest, I’m not sure how much he has developed since he was given his chance from the youth academy. Credit has to be given for giving him the chance (though he was obviously a major talent), and letting him run with it, but I think it would also be hard to give Wenger too much credit for his coaching in developing him.
Coq can’t be called a top player either, certainly, and Wenger doesn’t even seem to particularly like him, and allowed a great deal of his development to be done out on loan, or riding the bench being preferred to by inferior players (Ramsey) when he was/is here.
People saying Chambers hasn’t been developed?? Lol he looked very good at both CB and DM when he played last year.
On a different note Gabriel will be fine as a starting CB for us. He just needs a long run in the first team and a chance to form a partnership with Kosh. Remember when ppl siad Nacho was shit and it turned out he just needed an extended run in the team? I’ve seen plenty of positives out of Gabriel to think the same.
1 Like
Depends on your definition of ‘Top Player’ I suppose…I think Bellerin would, if put up for Transfer, attract a lot of interest from the top clubs in Europe.
Coq however, while maybe not a top player now, is established as first choice in the middle (unless Xhara displaces him) and is widely regarded in the PL.
In these times, none of the top European clubs have developed most of their own top players. There are limits to what any youth academy can produce. If you look around, there are tons of former Arsenal youth playing around the Premier League and in the Championship. You’d be hard-pressed to find English clubs who have done much better than Arsenal.
1 Like
The biggest issue people have with Gabriel is his ability on the ball. It’s possible he improves on that but it’s always going to be a limitation. Teams know they can put him under pressure and he makes errors and they also know they can let him have the ball and he’ll pose 0 threat.
Yes I remember complaining about his lack of control of the game at CB and calling for Mert to play there even with his lack of athleticism. Throw him in the deep end and let him learn to swim imo.
Well, the study I gave gives pretty quantitative evidence re: how many players our academy is producing, and while it’s not a bad number it’s not one that is necessarily deserving of our fame.
Anyways, there’s no denying the first sentence. The problem is, those top European clubs, in lieu of developing most of their own top players, go out and get the players needed to be a top club.
If you aren’t a wizard at getting the best out of a team either in a gestaltist way (through a strong team identity and tactical coherence) or by turning young players into stars and succeeding this way, then if you want to be a top European club there’s only that other option.
The problem is that Wenger, and a few remaining supporters of his, seem to still suffer the delusion that he is a wizard, when the objective facts just don’t back it up at this point.
That’s the point being made, really. The reputation for grooming young talents and turning them into stars is no longer really deserved. In 2013 when we signed Özil and started off great, people like myself believed that the future was incredibly bright whether we signed players or not (I remember making a post in the rumour mill to the effect of: why are people so obsessed with signings when we can do this with internal solutions)-- I had complete faith that Wenger would continue to explode talents like Ramsey (as it seemed he was doing then), Ox, Wilshere, Theo, Gnabry, Zelalem (seemed to us a big prospect at that time, if we recall), etc.
It just hasn’t happened. And so we have to accept the facts and stop mechanically giving the same narrative, just as we told the more boring Wenger haters to do when they continued to spout the same clichés that were no longer applicable post Özil.
Sounds like a great recipe for winning the title competing against Pep Guardiola’s City, Conte’s Chelsea, mega-club United, and Poch’s Spurs!
Seriously though, he’s 25 going on 26. He’s not a kid. And of all the qualities that you’d think you could significantly improve at this late date in his development, quality on the ball would likely be one of the last.
2 Likes
Most of the players we develop end up in the lower divisions of English or other European league. Kerrea Gilbert (as an example) who played champions league football for us even had a stint at my hometown club Shamrock Rovers. And he was muck!
We might be the best at producing mediocre players but that’s it. It’s actually quite fitting given our general mediocrity really.
2 Likes
That’s not my point though. Why do fans think we have some great record of brining in young players and developing young players when admittedly by yourself we don’t? I don’t care that much that we don’t do that, what bugs me is that we try to make ourselves out to be something we’re not for no reason. We’re just like every other club, except we don’t know what we’re doing in the transfer market.
4 Likes
So you think we’ve got a chance to win it?? Lol okay! We aren’t going to buy a top class CB sorry to break it to you. This is the team we’ve got so in all honesty the only chance of us winning against money clubs and all these top managers coming into the league is hope guys like Gabriel, Ox, Jack, Ramsey, Calum Chambers, and the like hit form and become sensations…pretty much all at the same time. Wengerisn’t going to turn into some pragmatic manager overnight, and he’s not going to be a free spender like the other clubs we compete with in the league. So our only hope is that Kosh and Gab turn into Ferdinand and Vidic, Giroud has a fluke of a year similar to Costa, and all our youth projects bloom at the same time.
So yeah agree with what you said and the odds of all those happening are about 30-1.
1 Like
Of the players mentioned in the above posts, Oxlade is the one that frustrates me the most because he’s so ineffective for us but also the one I feel has been failed by Wenger the most and could potentially play for another top(ish) side successfully.
I think the football we play, requires a level of intelligence from the player because there’s no real structured system in place, besides injuries, I don’t see why Oxlade can’t do well for a team that is able to utilise his individual talents by creating favourable situations for him such as 1v1’s often.
WE ARE A FUCKING MONEY CLUB. What planet are people living on?
1 Like
er, what? Where did I express any belief in a chance of us to win it?
@Burgundy I agree that Wenger has bungled Ox’s development a good deal (you didn’t even mention all the feeding into the delusion that he could be a centre midfielder he’s done), but Wilshere would be the biggest failure if he doesn’t become a top player. There’s just no way I could see Wilshere not becoming a big player under a top manager, he’s got all the talent and qualities, just a question of teaching him discipline and tactical intelligence, something Wenger has not seemed to do at all so far.
Yeah, we’ve got more than enough money to compete in the transfer market and get the quality of players needed. Wouldn’t guarantee us success because the superior management of Guardiola or Conte would probably win out even if we had as talented or more talented a squad, but the only thing stopping us from buying Higuaín and Mahrez/Draxler and a CB, and selling Ramsey, Giroud, and Ox to help fund these moves (it can be argued whether that’s needed or not), is Wenger’s scruples.
3 Likes
Ladies and Gentleman, the fabulous AbouCuellar. Let’s give this guy a round of applause! Well said.
1 Like
It’s quite pointless arguing that the academy or youth record has been great in recent years as there’s likely a solid reason behind the club restructuring the whole academy set-up and that’s definitely not that it was running great and doing spectacularly well.
Regarding the current crop, I somewhat fail to see how this is solely on the manager. None of them are really intelligent football players and so there’s only so much you can get out of them. That’s just more of a failure in judgement really.
1 Like