So probably not this one then? 
Iâm not suggesting he didnât but as I said, what Adams did is arguably worse, and he has a statue.
Graham took backhanders from an agent, it happened all the time and probably still does, so letâs not try and make out Graham is some sort of exclusive public enemy.
You could argue that Ozil is stealing almost double what Graham stole, every week that he is here, even if it is legally.
Regarding football, both Wenger and Graham turned this club around and brought success, how is that not worth some sort of recognition?
I honestly donât remember what Adams did, but I think the fact that Grahamâs was directly against his club makes it worse than otherwiseâŚ
Anyway, the thread is about Arsene - imho he deserves a statue for sure⌠I am a bit ambivalent on Graham, but I can absolutely see the argument against him and see zero chance he will get itâŚ
It is kind of like Pete Rose in baseball - he transgressed against the sport and the honor of the game and that has haunted him for decades now.
1 Like
Yea I think this about covers it. Societally drink driving is worse than taking a bung but no one was hurt in either circumstance and in Adams case he did the time, returned to the club and pocketed numerous trophies afterwards.
1 Like
I think Wengers success looked very heavily linked to what David Dein did. If you read what ex players say about him itâs stupendously good.
He knew all the team personally and his relationships attracted and retained the best at what was at the time a very good market rate in our favour. Henry decided to leave when he saw Dein was going for example.
Noticeably Arsene was relatively very unsuccessful after Dein left. Now Dein spends a lot of his time speaking in prisons and schools doing philanthropist type work which speaks to his personality and why players wouldâve performed and stayed for him.
Off course Wenger was amazing at first too. He extended the working life of that great defence and brought in top French players at a bargain price. He also heralded the start of a glorious amount of attacking football in his early years which was a joy to watch.
However I do think Wenger became half the manager he was without Dein as his partner and the team slid badly downhill thereafter.
You said before you thought he earned a grand a week. Iâm pretty sure that 52k a year (not inclusive of any bonuses) was significantly above the average wage in the late eighties and early nineties. Actually, Iâm not pretty sure, I know it for a fact.
Also, nobody knew that the money in football would skyrocket ridiculously in the coming years, why are you trying to use the comparatively lower wages to justify being fucking corrupt? It doesnât make sense.
For the time, he was paid very well. He chose to take back handers anyway.
On the topic of the thread⌠Iâm really fucking snide and disparaging of Wenger these days, due to the last five ish years of his reign, perhaps slightly longer. But anyone saying he doesnât deserve a statue is full of shit and horribly agenda driven. You can tell because their first move is usually to try and denigrate him compared to the old fashioned, solid English bloke that is George Graham.
Despite his final years with us, Wenger should be fucking celebrated in a historical sense. Of course he deserves a statue, its not even up for discussion as far as Iâm concerned.
1 Like
Ahem
2 Likes
Haha, they all used to be fucking English, they still might as well be.
Interesting view here.
British press is often full of stories of excess of fat cat execs taking huge pay offs for terrible failure.
Extreme examples include people like Fred Goodwin and his pay off when he left RBS in tatters and a banking crisis that shattered the economy. The loss in tax revenues after the contraction in the economy has caused spending restrictions in health social care etc etc that have cost thousands of lives due to poor care that resulted. An extreme example I know but at some point morals must come into it rather than a strict legal view.
Some execs (arguably the not good ones who get sacked a lot for failing for the most part) will say a contract is a contract just pay up no matter their level of failure. I think they set a bad moral example and illustrate a lot where our society has gone badly wrong.
A good friend of mine (and no Iâm not going to give his name as itâs private to him) was a FTSE 100 CEO years ago. He fucked up, lost his job and decided to waive his severance. He didnât have too but heâd already made a lot before it went wrong and waived his payment because he felt it was right given his level of mess up. It does happen and itâs right it happens. Leaders have to set good examples not ones of naked legalistic greed. Anyway thatâs what I think.
Wenger messed up very badly, had already made a huge huge fortune and says he loves Arsenal but still takes his severance pay. So his greed spoke louder than any love he had from what I can see.
IMO contract law is contract law. Your employer are Vegas odds unlikely to be charitable towards you on your way out the door, Iâll be fucked if Iâm going to be.
But fair fucking play to you personally if you waived money you were very much entitled to. That says a lot about your character, but I donât think itâs fair for you to demand it of others as you seem to be with Wenger.
He had every right to that money and doesnât deserve stick for taking it. Itâs the people who offered him the contract who deserve the stick, clearly.
1 Like
I donât demand it of Wenger. Just saying if heâs going to take a legalistic approach in preference to showing his love for the club and take the money then fuck the statue.
1 Like
For me this is the same as Ozilâs contract.
Ozil deserves the stick of playing below par, but never should got criticized or anything related to his 350k contract.
If people donât like his contact, fuck the one(s) who gave it to him.
I mean demand it in the sense that it seems to be some sort of moral standard you are holding him to. I donât mean it literally that youâre outside his house screaming that he rejects all severance payments
If you donât hold people to good moral standards and values what do you hold them to. Is it all just contracts and greed and is that all weâve come to? Is that what deserves statues in their honour to be built to?
I donât agree with using the compensation thing as a stick to beat Wenger with but I feel he personally should have waived his own compensation.
If he truly wanted the best for the club moving forward, he would have waived knowing his salary comp which comprised majority of the ÂŁ17m figure.
Feels like he took what he was (rightfully) owed because of misplaced bitterness towards the club/fans. He wouldnât even had the contact if Kroenke didnât give him the benefit doubt after finishing 5th in the league.
We made him one of the highest paid managers in the world, gave him funding and the freedom to manage as he saw fit and weâre suffering now because he held on to him for too long. Itâs appears Wenger didnât realise he was in a very fortunate situation having been given opportunity to bounce back.
Feels very ignorant tbh and I absolutely love Wenger. Feels more transactional than heartfelt which isnât something youâd expect from your manager of over 20 years
1 Like
This is quite possibly the worst argument I have ever heard on this topic.
3 Likes
For all we know he did try to waive it.
Payout for Execs (Ie golden parachutes) are ridiculous, but they are often also promised as part of terms of employment.
The issue with public companies and boards is there is virtual collusion and conflict of interest and not nearly enough paying attention to the long-term health of a company - it is all about making quarterly reports look good from a bottom line perspective⌠you can come in, lay waste the company in the long-run, but hit big numbers for a couple of years and ride off into sunset super rich. Privately held have more clear lines of interest and donât have same fiduciary responsibilities to âthe publicâ (ie shareholders).
Anyway, the larger point is that these terms are agreed upon, ESPECIALLY contract positions, UP FRONT. There is no debating it - that is the whole point. These are guaranteed contracts in a lot of cases (MLB has this, NFL does not, in contrast) - so the termination clause is part of the entire negotiation and is understood by all parties to have substantial value, so it affects the rest of the negotiation (just like any term does).
I donât agree with massive compensation or payouts to fatcat public company execs FWIW b/c their structure and set up is poorly designed for long-term health of company - and in a lot of cases these arenât even predetermined, so I find it f*ing ridiculous when some shmuck basically ran the company poorly, hurting the rank and file and then walks away with tens of millions, setting his/her own family up for generations while others suffer the consequences of their performance.
Giving an example of a rich guy who decides to forego severance is great, but that isnât a reasonable expectation in general b/c they are terms agreed upon up front (contractual) and are part of the overall value equation⌠any rich person at any point can make a decision against their financial self-interest âto do the right thingâ but we have contracts for a reason.
Yes I can see youâre in the contract is a contract camp and that youâre never changing your mind so I wonât bang my head against that wall then.
Well let me put it this way - if I negotiate with Arsenal to pay me for 5 years 1 million a year and have a guaranteed contract - that is one scenario (virtually all managers have this in football for many good reasons, and some perhaps questionable)âŚ
The other scenario is that they hire me, taking me away from my current job and club, I have no guarantee and decide they want to change course (I did well, poorly, mediocre), whatever⌠in that scenario, I wouldnât accept the 1 million a year b/c I am taking on the risk and the transition.
The term has value, so it affects the rest of the terms.
Put another way - if an auditor came in and said âI see you have this liability on the books to pay out the managerâ and the company said âoh, well he told us not to worry about itâ that wouldnât be good enough⌠they would literally need a signed agreement voiding the contract in the first place, b/c that is the point of contracts.
1 Like