'Cos dey killed Jesus.
I am so confused with history of Judaism, Moses and their involvement in Middle East & Christianity; especially considering Jesus was born a Jew.
Wow the old guy in the first video has such a punchable face-sonality.
That said after watching both videos, I’m genuinely surprised - as a non-religious person - that there is a belief that the Jews didn’t kill Jesus. That’s completely new on me.
I was even taught in RE/RS that the Jews killed Jesus because they rejected him as blasphemous for falsely claiming to be the son of God.
Reported for christian nazism.
Christianity was despised and was a common source of ridicule by AH.
Failed attempt at joke. Sorry.
It’s just that i see you as a bloody german. I don’t know why.
well “odio” is “hate”, un club odiado is a hated club
te odio Tottenham = I hate you tottenham
Even if their indifference did lead to his death, ultimately it remains the Romans who conducted the crucifixion.
I keep hearing Christians go ‘Jesus came to earth to die for our sins’; so wouldn’t you be glad that Jews assisted Jesus in doing so?
More I look into Jewish history, more I feel like they are most prosecuted religion of all time.
Ruled & killed by various empires, accused of killing Jesus who was a Jewish saviour, Jews were considered enemy to Christianity which primarily is a Jewish sect, Hitler hated them, Muslims hate them.
Jerusalem was their land, so Israel/Jews had the right over it but Jesus was born there, so Christians want it. Muslims have their claim after they built their religious stuffs there.
So now Israel is stuck surrounded by enemies.
Man, it sucks to be a Jew.
I mean, you can take the cynical route and say that taking up the jewish link angle is going to catch the eye, get more hits, sell more papers or you could take the more forgiving route and just say probably 98% of Marca’s readers won’t have a clue about this history of Tottenham’s, will have no clue about any jewish links to Tottenham and much else other than that it’s a club from London (if that) who Gareth Bale used to play for, and that it’s interesting to talk about football history or a currently relevant club in the context of its long history.
Personally, in either case I don’t see the issue. Newspapers are a business and Marca does FAR, FAR more cynical things than inform your run of the mill spanish football fan about the history of Tottenham while highlighting a history of good quality of football and generally taking a very positive angle toward the club. So do the English equivalents. I don’t really want to go here because in the other recent conversation in the ‘grind your gears’ thread I was partly trolling and trying to provoke people and in this one I’m 100% serious, but I really think this is a case of a) foreign paper (from a country with a very catholic history) using the word jewish and ‘hated’ in a headline + b) people actively looking for things to be offended about on twitter/things that give them a platform to look righteous and sensitive and socially aware and considerate = SHOCK AND AWE
No, certainly not currently. But 60-70 years ago–being conservative here, probably before–surely. Now any hate is probably more like racism or anti-semitism in the U.S., not out in the open whatsoever but that doesn’t mean it’s not there.
Literally: hated. But hated in english sounds a lot stronger than ‘odiado’ in this context in spanish. If I had more time when I was putting that quote above which I stumbled upon when reading an article on ESPN about this, I would’ve qualified that it’s more of a misinterpretation than a mistranslation. Which is actually what Enrique Ortego said in his rectification-- interpretación errónea, which literally means misinterpretation.
Which is literally the case (no idea why ESPNFC decided to translate it to mistranslation, when there is also an English version of the article I see now: http://www.marca.com/en/football/international-football/opinion/2017/10/16/59e4c1d222601d2b578b4649.html , in which it’s translated as mistaken interperation…maybe this version wasn’t available when ESPNFC made the article).
In short, I’m a translator so I’m getting all nerdy about this-- the bottom line is that it’s a typical case of denotation vs. connotation. The denotation is exactly the same. The connotation is not. If I were translating that headline, to preserve the connotative meaning, I would probably go for disliked, as we use the word hated probably a bit more flippantly, as spanish is in general a bit more direct language in its use, and we are not as (haven’t regressed so much? ) advanced in the arts of over-politeness and roundabout language.
Either way…Enrique Ortego or whoever decided to write that rectification for him decided to put emphasis on interpretation of the word ‘odiado’ to explain to the international/english speaking public why it might offend, which makes sense, but I would just say in general it’s a cultural thing, I can’t imagine any spaniard, even an incredibly snowflakish jewish one, reading that headline and thinking twice.
As you say, though: they are saying that’s a reason/contributing factor to why (historically) there has been ill-will toward them as a club. And my conclusion is the same: there’s nothing wrong with that assertion, it’s factually correct.
Fair play, both you and @JakeyBoy have made good points tbh. Perhaps it’s a slight overreaction to take particular offence to the headline, although I do think it’s rather distasteful to draw attention to it so bluntly. My preconception of the paper does cloud my judgement alot, I think for the most part it’s journalists and headlines are awful.
In relation to the tweet;
Shows you how much people overreacted to it that he had to delete it
I dunno…I just put Marca Tottenham into Twitter and between the blatant (most likely cynical and purposeful) mistranslations from the Independent/the Daily Mail and the alarmist tweets in reaction to them or the Marca headline have me pretty annoyed. I think the headline is designed okay enough.
“Hated/disliked but with good footballing style”– doesn’t mention anything about the Jewish link. Then: “[The club’s] jewish origins have made it an unpopular club among opposing fans, but in its 135 year lifetime it has always been a club with style and great players.”
Then you see people turning this into:
…which for me, is, if anything, something to be disgusted about. Otherwise, I struggle to see the problem, honestly.
This alarmist news/twitter world we live in these days rather amazes me. I would like to ask every single person who reacts so indignantly to trifles like these, who no doubt pride themselves on their ‘tolerance’, to remember what the word tolerance itself means. Because tolerance is not alarmist attitudes, it is not reactionary get offended-at-everything-and-lash-out-ism…it is rather the opposite, and those things are just what propagate environments where a LACK OF TOLERANCE exists.
I agree with the bottom part re; tolerance and people overreacting. Before the tweet was deleted I read through some of the comments below it which were definitely over the top. A lot of them were Spurs fans linking Marca and Real Madrid to Franco etc (which, in part is historically true but not needed and definitely not related to the article).
But I do contest the Jewish origin of the club being a reason why its hated if I’m honest. I could be wrong here, pehaps in the past they were hated for that reason. They are hated by us because of proximity, same with West Ham, so I really don’t see the relevance of what they put in the article.
I think you were right in the previous tweet, I think the Spanish phrasing sounds a bit harsher and direct than if it were published in English which has probably led to some of the reaction in the press and on twitter.
Besides, it’s taking away from the fact that I think the game tonight will be really competitive and entertaining.
Yeah. IMO the main objection to the statement would be whether it is factually accurate or not, as I’m not sure if it’s the reason some sets of fans dislike them or whether its just something they thought they could give a rival stick for. For instance, the case of West Ham. East London used to be a real hub for London’s Jewish community, before North London was, so historically im not sure East Enders would see that as something to dislike Spurs for.
Chelsea have got a vocal element of nasty right wing cunts in their fan base that I know dates back to the 70s/80s, but whether that is the genesis for their rivalry with Spurs, I just don’t know.
I’d compare it a bit to if an English rag had done a headline about Real Madrid saying: “Hated/disliked but with bucketloads of trophies”, and “The club’s links to Franco have made it an unpopular club among opposing fans, but in its ___ year lifetime it has always been a club with success and great players.”
Are Madridistas going to like that headline? Probably not. Is it more or less factually correct? Yes. (Because, as you two rightly point out, it’s hard to say if those links to Franco or Tottenham’s to Judaism are the reason why people dislike them, or if they are just things rival clubs use after the fact to give them stick for, hence why I now say “more or less” factually correct, as opposed to “totally factually correct” as I said at first. Either way, it’s correct enough that you would have to be pretty pedantic to find fault with it, tbh, as there have no doubt been significant sections of people who didn’t like Tottenham for its Jewish links just as there have been/still are significant sections of people who don’t like Madrid for its links to Franquismo)
And if that happened, and the inevitable social media up-in-arms-ism resulted, I would say the same thing to offended Madridistas as I would now to offended Spurs supporters: get over it, and use your time getting offended on something else, because there are a million things more interesting or more important to get offended or get up in arms about.
Either way, a story like that, or the one Marca had, is doing more to inform than about 99% of the articles you’ll see in these papers. I am sure just as the average spanish football fan has no fucking clue about Tottenham’s jewish links neither does the average english football fan know about the Di Stefano case, know about the direct link between Raimundo Saporta (then vice president of RM) and Franco and about the gifts and bribes they gave to referees or their wives, etc.
Hence why I really don’t have a problem with it, especially when the headline itself is overtly laudatory and pro-Tottenham. If The Mirror or The Independent or whoever made a similar headline about Barça just replacing Judaism for Catalan-ism, Madridistas would be furious about it, which is kinda the funny thing. In all this alarmism and anxiousness to get offended about something, Spurs fans have missed the fact that a Spanish paper is praising the fuck out of them.
You learn something new every day.
I assumed people hated Jews because of Tottenham. In hindsight, it always seemed a bit of an overreaction to me.
they gloat at a draw in the bernabeu. we BEAT Zidane there as a PLAYER! haha.
18th May 1991…a glorious day. 'Cos it’s when that lot last won a decent trophy.
From and including: Saturday, 18 May 1991
To and including: Saturday, 21 October 2017
Result: 9654 days
It is 9654 days from the start date to the end date, end date included
Or 26 years, 5 months, 4 days including the end date.
and still counting…
even with their new ground, once wenger goes and we’re run properly, we’d still piss them out of the water.
Didn’t they win the League Cup a handful of years back?